A coffee-fueled round-table discussion about the book, "The Alabaster Girl" by Zan Perrion. Listen in as Zan and his guests explore the themes and concepts of the book in immense and surprising detail. The episodes will be released on a regular basis, so don't forget to subscribe!
In this episode: Part Six of the discussion on the chapter: The Way of Love __________________________________________________
"In Search of the Alabaster Girl" Producer: Zan Perrion Director: Ioan Bati Editor: Gabriel Coroiu Sound Editing: Nikolaos Spyratos Original music: "Tango del'Amor" by DaKsha & Nandi With: Zan Perrion, Jordan Luke Collier, Rich Thompson, Owen Davis
Ars Amorata is a celebration of the art of seduction, the rebirth of romance, and a lifelong quest for beauty and adventure.
Zan Perrion is internationally recognized as one of the most original and insightful voices on relationships and seduction in the world today. A regular media commentator, he has been widely featured in the international press. Zan is the founder of the Ars Amorata philosophy--a celebration of the art of seduction, the rebirth of romance, and a lifelong quest for beauty and adventure. He is also a co-founder of the Amorati network of men. Zan divides his time between Canada and Romania and can be found at www.zanperrion.com and www.arsamorata.com
A coffee-fueled round-table discussion about the book, "The Alabaster Girl" by Zan Perrion. Listen in as Zan and his guests explore the themes and concepts of the book in immense and surprising detail. The episodes will be released on a regular basis, so don't forget to subscribe!
In this episode: Part Six of the discussion on the chapter: The Way of Love __________________________________________________
"In Search of the Alabaster Girl" Producer: Zan Perrion Director: Ioan Bati Editor: Gabriel Coroiu Sound Editing: Nikolaos Spyratos Original music: "Tango del'Amor" by DaKsha & Nandi With: Zan Perrion, Jordan Luke Collier, Rich Thompson, Owen Davis
Ars Amorata is a celebration of the art of seduction, the rebirth of romance, and a lifelong quest for beauty and adventure.
Zan Perrion is internationally recognized as one of the most original and insightful voices on relationships and seduction in the world today. A regular media commentator, he has been widely featured in the international press. Zan is the founder of the Ars Amorata philosophy--a celebration of the art of seduction, the rebirth of romance, and a lifelong quest for beauty and adventure. He is also a co-founder of the Amorati network of men. Zan divides his time between Canada and Romania and can be found at www.zanperrion.com and www.arsamorata.com
according to some random Zanny talk, in the chapter of the way of love. That's the idea of symmetry and you say those who are truly attracted to you on a heart level are the ones who are attracted to you.
Speaker 2:
Yes, that's an assumption I have, that is a theory I have, and I think that rings true. I mean, without going into describing the whole thing, I will describe the whole thing. We have these layers of fog over our eyes. I call it a cloud of horniness. For men, it clouds their judgments, their decisions, their level of understanding and because they have that, because it's overriding emotion for them, they focus on almost every girl as being a possible candidate for that. And so my theory is that we chase down a lot of potential partners who are not really aligned with our values, our ideals, because we have this cloud of horniness. We can't see for real, we can't see. We have this veil covering our eyes.
Speaker 2:
If we could see that, I do believe in the symmetry of it all. And you guys have said in our conversation the last few days, where you said there's that one time you, just before the cameras rolled, there's that Greek girl at a certain time and there's something about her just really caught me up. And I do believe in the symmetry of that. If you're really, if you can see clearly and you had the strong, real strong connection, if you can see clearly, you wouldn't be necessarily attracted to all these girls, but the one over there. There's something really a strong connection there, a strong draw, and I believe if this is my theory that it's symmetrical that she would adore you too, can I?
Speaker 3:
explain that well. It seems to me that this whole thing is the biggest leap of faith that you're asking men to do in the whole book.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, Well, how can they? If you've got a cloud of horniness, it's easy for somebody to come along and say, hey, stop being horny, right, but that overrides your thoughts, that influences the way you move through your evenings, your weekends, and it influences how you interact with people, and so it's easy to say it she's like anything else but yourself.
Speaker 3:
So is that the difference for you? Like a guy would go to a club and try and approach 10 women and hope, by the time you've spoken to 10 women, that one of them will like him enough to date him or go home with him.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, well, he might be sincere in thinking that you talked to 10 women and the 10th one said, yes, I like you too, and it might be a sincere thing where he really believes why I like this girl a lot. But then you know, three months, six months, whatever into it, he's like oh, I was blind, love was blind, he said, and I didn't really see the real her.
Speaker 3:
I couldn't really see the real her.
Speaker 2:
I couldn't see the real her, because I don't know why.
Speaker 3:
And you say that. Well, the cloud of horniness is one thing, and you've got the phrase if all our issues and expectations and presumptions were somehow magically removed, the ones we find ourselves attracted to would be the ones attracted to us. Yes, that's my scientific theory. So what specifically? Are those issues and expectations and presumptions that you talk about.
Speaker 2:
Well, our layers of need and seeking validation and comparing to relationships in the past and our you know all these psychological things, like you know our relationship to our mother or our father, you know all these things all kind of layer in there and it makes you think, well, and I don't have and I'm lonely, and I don't have a girl in my life. So this girl looks like is going to solve that. Because we can't see clearly, we can't really see it. Maybe that she's, she's not a nice person or she's just not our, our type.
Speaker 2:
you know, we think we're in love. That happens a lot. We think we're in love. It's found a lot of this girl but all kinds of things mask great for that, and that's just the right. And maybe you can't get rid of all the layers, maybe that's a, like everything else, a pipe dream, you know, but I think that's. It is my, my sense of it. That is very symmetrical. It is all our relationships. Relationships are asymmetrical. One loves more than the other. One says I love you first, waits for the other one to say one's waiting for the phone to ring. She gonna call her. Should I call her? She's not thinking the same thing necessarily. So there's all kinds of problems about that.
Speaker 1:
But if you see clearly, that would likely be not a problem.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, if you could see clearly, you wouldn't be attracted to the random girl that you met in the bar last weekend and texting her and chasing her all over the map. That's not my girl. In other words, if you didn't have that cloud of hornyness and that cloud of expectation, that cloud of all that baggage that you're walking around with, then you would say that's a nice girl, I like it, that's nice, and you might still see the girl, but you would know what. You'd have a clear understanding of your real motives there. And then there's the one girl that just pops out of the scenery and you guys have had those experiences where it's just you talk about Brazil all the time. You talk about your experiences, you talk about your experiences and I know it too. Every guy can relate to that. Wow, that one girl. There's just something about her. I don't know what it was. Yeah, she's just shining like an angel in my eyes. That's incredible. I can't stop thinking about it.
Speaker 3:
I've seen it a lot, taking these way of approaching workshops that I used to do a few years back and would go to a bar or down the street with a guy and he'd start talking to girls to overcome his shyness and learn how to celebrate women and put into practice all these things that you write about, and he would talk to 10 different women and say you know what?
Speaker 3:
I forgot about all of them. But there was that one girl that caught a fire outside Starbucks or whatever, and she just took my breath away and all those girls walked away and didn't really want to speak to me, but that one, she loved everything that I said, even though she had a boyfriend, and I won't see her again. It's like, and you'll spend the rest of the night thinking about that one girl and it was, and he'll say you know, but she wasn't even the hottest one, don't know what it was. Yeah, yeah, we all understand that. Yeah, that's what we're talking about here this whole time. Do you have any thoughts or ideas about what that symmetry actually is?
Speaker 2:
No, I think yeah, no, but yes, no, yeah, I think it is our abstract again, our heart's desire, and that true chemistry of two people really adoring each other and really being attracted to them, really desiring each other in a physical way, in a mental way, and just liking the smile or liking any of these. We could talk all day about the, about the, what attracts us. But it's not just the figure of the girl, it's not just her hourglass shape or you know, it's just something about her spirit and something in your spirit that is that's drawing her. I really do think it's a metric on it, and if you could. And women have the same trouble too, because they've got to fail over their eyes too. They're looking for Mr Right and comparing everybody they meet. Oh, is this Mr Right? Is that Mr Right? Is that Mr Right? You know, whatever kind of layers and expectations they have too.
Speaker 3:
So she would dismiss her heart's desire because he doesn't tickle the boxes.
Speaker 2:
Or not recognize it in the sea of men, right, date this. Women go on dates and they're hoping. How many you know? You talk to women who are in the dating world and they talk about being in the dating world and they go on dates and they're hoping maybe this is an option, because they have no clue either. So they're fishing in the dark too, right, and then so it's not that they're not going to recognize the man that they're really attracted to, but they might not see him because they're dating you and you and you, because they're like, they're scattershot, trying to fill this void in their life, Just like us.
Speaker 3:
So that's the fault bad fault.
Speaker 2:
It's nobody's fault. Fog Fog oh.
Speaker 3:
Yeah, I'm not blaming you. I'm not blaming you, you're blaming me.
Speaker 2:
Oh wait a minute, it's their fault. Oh yeah, it's their fog. Sorry, it's their fault, yeah.
Speaker 3:
So there's a land of women and a sea of men. Huh yeah, there we go, and there's fog above everything.
Speaker 2:
And the sea is laughing up against the shore of the land of women.
Speaker 3:
There you go. I like that. If it's lucky, the rest of the sea is just out there. I haven't seen land in months and a lot of land is pretty dry. It's just the edges, just the coasts, that where we connect Back to the symmetry thing. Our friend Nicos told me once that your soulmate, the person who is your soulmate, is somebody whose life force has evolved from the same particle that came from the Big Bang.
Speaker 2:
Nico, he waxed poetical and scientific at the same time. Yeah, he's the artist. Yeah, but we all did. Though If the Big Bang is an actor, we're all the same person. That's right.
Speaker 3:
Put closer from on the family tree, I guess. Oh, I see, yeah.
Speaker 2:
More, use more your sister than the rest of us.
Speaker 1:
Yeah soulmates.
Speaker 2:
There's a word huh, what do you think of that? Same as everybody else thinks about it. I Do have this, this sense that this concept of soulmate is is what's the phrase? Love the one you're with you know? Yeah, let's see what is. What was the old Islander said hey, they're all crazy, just pick one. It's, but it's. But there's a, there's a truth in that like and I said this, are you always use your country's example? I've said it to guys. Listen, somebody can pick up rich. An alien ship could come down here and land. Take them up into the spaceship right here through the roof and land him in Australia. There's no way to get back here.
Speaker 2:
And in the t-shirt and then pants he's wearing, and he's thinking about a girl from England or from Romania that he managed like, wow, you like this girl. Plop them down in the middle of Australia there Five years later. If he was, if we went to stumble upon him in Australia's you're here, yeah, I don't know how I got here, but here I am he'd have a girl. He's thinking about an Australian girl that he's in love with, can't stop dreaming about her. You know I'm saying yeah. So, unless you and unless you go down the path of predestination, that means that he was predestined to be there five years from now to meet this, the one of his dreams, his soulmate. That was meant from the big banger, from creation, whatever, and he and he discovered her there, and that was part of the predestined plan. Who knows flushes, philosophers been talking about these things for ever.
Speaker 3:
What I've come to think from Countless adventures and hell of a lot of head scratching about women I've been with or fallen in love with, is that this whole question of oh, was this really a soulmate, or was this just like my mother projection again? Or like this really a good one that I lost, or Like? There's no way of knowing at all any of that when you're in the middle of it?
Speaker 2:
But even this guy on the train, he's asked the question late in the book and I can't remember where where the interviewer saying to him you haven't marked. I would like to say clearly yeah, I can just say it anyway, where he's basically. She's saying to him Maybe you left her behind. You know all your travels, are you?
Speaker 2:
looking for this you know, are you looking for now, master girl, this, this, this girl of your dreams, and she says maybe you left her behind in your child. And he goes no, there's a thought. Is he? Even? He doesn't know All this, study, practice, understood, intuition, type of knowledge, experience? He has any and and knows right Fears of the heart. So, how do?
Speaker 1:
men get rid of this cloud of horniness, and women the promise of shared future. How do you tap into more the the heart level? I don't know well, who knows I mean like Can you will it away?
Speaker 2:
Can you be aware that's a good question. Can you be a man, be aware that maybe you know he's not seen clearly, or is it the same thing you talked about? Like you, you could have all kinds of coaching theories in your mind and affirmations and you fall in love with a girl who breaks your heart and that trumps at all of your studied mental Preparations and practice. And because you're, you're sad and you hurt, and in this, emotions trump your intellect, right, and your state Can't help. Well, maybe I'm wrong in this, but your state can't help. In being sad, matter how you, matter how much you look in the mirror and say is it's, it's gonna be okay, you can't see the light in the end of the tunnel, even though you know in your head and you and you know for certain that there is light at the end of the tunnel Right now you don't feel it so you can tell you saw that all day.
Speaker 2:
So it's kind of like this too, it's like you know, it's yes, you, I can say, or somebody can say, listen, or you can do, learn this that I'm not really, maybe I'm not really attracted to this girl, but I had this horniness and and it looks like my ideal girl and you can talk yourself out of an all day. And how do you remove that sense of longing, that sense of Sexual desire in your heart? How do you? How do you? Is it possible? I don't know.
Speaker 3:
Think. What seems to happen? What do you guys think? Yeah, in my experience it's like I'm growing up with a lot of fog or a lot of layers of the onion, and through every experience of love or every disaster or Every new realization, it's like a little bit of that fog leaves and I start getting to see more clearly and getting to see my Old patterns, my old habits quicker and quicker, get into, see different aspects of her quicker and quicker, and it's almost as if, like this lost little boy really desiring a lover, a woman, anybody has Been left behind and there's a much more reasonable, rational adult at the wheel which can see things a lot quicker and make much more pragmatic, sensible Solutions. And it feels that even after that it's come into a point where actually that's being replaced by a much more innocent longing again. Yeah, it goes back, yeah, and being able to appreciate More women in more different ways than I could when I was in a much more sensible place but I'm agreeing with you.
Speaker 2:
But that's a process, yes, so you can't short circuit it.
Speaker 1:
That's a journey you have to go on you have.
Speaker 2:
You can't just Read about it or be coached about it. And now, okay, I get that. Now I'm gonna get out of my head and get out of and stop feeling this and remove this cloud and you can be aware of it. But you've got to have that. You said, like the onion, skin layers just slowly peel away and you get a bit more. You know, it's like, it's like this and I've likened it, likened it to this before. It's like you're going up a mountain in fog and you go higher and higher and higher till eventually the fog slowly starts to dissipate. You know, and you, and it becomes. You get some kind of a clarity. Does you're higher In?
Speaker 1:
your understanding.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, and you could see a little farther, you can, you know. So it's like that, and. But while you're down and mulling around in the valley, all you can see is like Just go to the next woman.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, and see what happens and hope that's the one. Yeah, hope that this lands and becomes a nice relationship. Or if our, if our, if our heart is wanting to go get laid or a heart is wanting to have a life companion, we would like to have a woman or life to travel with and we hope that's the one. We try it out, take it for a test drive for three months.
Speaker 3:
So it's like this if we're on a spiritual journey, everyone's going up that mountain. We either go alone and stop off at different houses along the way, or we meet someone and go up together, but a lot of people just mulling around at the base of the mountain.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, most people just wandering around. It's like that. They don't need. They have no, you have no curiosity and desire to go higher. They don't know that it's available.
Speaker 3:
And it's like when you write about Monet, who drew the same painting again and again and again. It's like we go through the same relationship, living out the same. We live out the same relationship or it looks different every time.
Speaker 2:
Sure, looks different, it turns out. This is seen patterns, the same thing, sisyphus. Sisyphus is rock, rolling it up, coming back down again.
Speaker 3:
Like throughout the whole book, we're talking about just the beauty you see in women and how you want to relate with them, so that you call that fourth, and I imagine that that kind of clarity you have in your interactions and in your way of seeing women and wanting women to be is something that's cleared up. Like year after year after year after year, you've had more clarity in all your communication, oh yeah.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, because I did my ten thousand hours. That's your trip up the mountain. Yeah, I have a much, much, much clearer idea of how I want my life to be arranged and how I want my life to look. You know, then I used it for sure and I was like everybody else, like wandering around trying to can't see my hand in front of my face because it's a fog, and it was all kind of like shapes. You see shapes. It looks like a girl to me. It looks like shape, like a girl. I like it. I'm like I'm just a girl. I'm going to fall in love with her, I'm going to send her messages, I'm going to wish she was around and be despondent when she doesn't respond and be upset because she didn't send me a message back and blame myself. And she's just the shape, the vague shape, of a girl. But we think that's oh yeah.
Speaker 2:
When I was young, I used to project myself onto women and I would meet a girl, start to date her and I would be thinking I have to make this work, otherwise I'm a failure, and I would be thinking about it all the time. And I, you know, the community, has this, this, this convenient term called oneitis. It can only think about the one, and when that breaks, falls apart, you're, you know, crying in your beer for a period of time, and then you get the next, the one. Just know, this is the one, for sure, that one. No, no, no, this is the one, and you just go through this pattern.
Speaker 1:
I see this the same but differently. That makes any sense. I get the process of. I think this is a theme that there's one level where you're trying to add new experiences and skills and knowledge and there's another level where the heart of it is stripping away and she's stripping away the stuff that gets to your natural state.
Speaker 3:
I think of this as I do a lot of things in music or poetry.
Speaker 1:
It's an artistic thing. Sometimes words or a song really hits you here and there's some songs you go arts and I song, like the beat, like the melody, it's fun to dance to. And some songs of it's nature hit you here and I think about someone in my life. It's always been that it hit me here and yes, of course there's a physical attraction and that stuff. But when you feel it it's almost like your heart's out your chest. I've actually felt that it's not somewhere I've consciously done. It's just been like boom. When we first met Jordan, we talked about this kind of thing.
Speaker 3:
I think you're the one, jordan, it's just your cloud of horniness man that's so big you can see whether it is an outline of a girl or a line of Jordan A little bit more.
Speaker 2:
What should I do? I'm sorry, did you read it? I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry did you read it, as I?
Speaker 1:
I was just saying. But yes, even in those moments you can say the most stupid things, as I often do, but if it comes to that place, it comes across as more natural, it clicks and it's quite endearing. I think it's man, we definitely put the pressure on us. It's like we got to say this, do this, or else our full, and sometimes it's the right thing. It's more, as you said, it's about ease, it's about flow, it's natural.
Speaker 2:
If you ever had any of you had the, the thing that this happened to you, where you you see a girl somewhere and there's just something about her that, no matter what, I've got to talk to her, that in other words, all your hesitations and all your other stuff it you just you cast it aside and throw yourself to cause the throw caution to the wind and go right. Few times, not very many, right? So imagine that if those moments where even all your hesitations and all your self-talk and all your fear of rejection Don't even matter, maybe those are the real moments and everything else is just you approximating, just talking to the next girl. And so when you hesitate to see a pretty girl you'd be like, but you don't approach her, but I know that there's because I. This happens then all the time, not all the time, but a few times in a life where, no matter what I have to, I have to Track this one down.
Speaker 3:
I have to it's like you're saying with the sub communication that I contact across the room and that golden thread is just so strong. Yeah, it's like there's no way you cannot act on it.
Speaker 2:
Yes, and that's not. It doesn't happen very often, but you see a lot of pretty girls that you'd like to approach.
Speaker 1:
You see, I'm saying yeah, I think it's like that a lot. There is life. You feel like you come to a place, it's like no, I meant to be her longer. We come to certain job. Is that you feel that? It's deep, deep intuition. It's more primal than all logic and the people laugh me. I go through my rationalization, I come up pros and cons or something and I always go my first instinct and I just waste two weeks.
Speaker 2:
Yeah.
Speaker 1:
I know I'm gonna go bought my instincts, that that's true.
Speaker 2:
And there's something I think, something we should trust more on that we don't society, we're bringing our Venn diagrams and our models and our pros and cons, like when you ask that when you see something that you want to buy and you really want to buy it, but you're rationalized that, rationalizing yourself away from it and rose and gone. But you know you can buy it anyway. I'm gonna buy it at least. So true, yeah, it's the same kind of thing.
Speaker 3:
One of the biggest learnings I ever had with this whole theme of the cloud of horniness and the hot woman and the beautiful woman thing was, um, you know, I was saying a little while ago that we've actually got different bodies. So this is an idea I got, I think, from meditation, where it's like we've got the concrete body, which is this we can see it and touch it and feel it and Then we've got this subtle body which is a mixture of all the energies and emotions and feelings that Go all the way through and that's invisible. But we can feel it if we learn how to tune into it and a lot of people don't. But if you're like fully you can feel the energy in you or the emotions, then it's like oh, there's another me that's in the same place but it's also moving around.
Speaker 3:
And I remember being at that party in London with you a couple of years ago and I met a woman there where it was like the physical, like to look at her skin and her body shape and all that kind of stuff felt no attraction Towards her in the conventional hot woman sense and yet it was like all of the feelings and energy inside me was saying yes, and it was so and I thought you know what, screw it, I'll go and talk to her and chase this down and see what happens with this. So, rather than being like relying on how I looked on my physical appearance and going after a woman with physical appearance, I trusted that, like, the energy body in me and the energy body in her were actually in sync and they were attracted to each other, and I let that be the guy driving force.
Speaker 3:
Yeah not the physical, not like my, what my eye can see, and then my rational interpretation of that. I'll be like let's go and do what my energy feels like doing.
Speaker 3:
Sounds like, I guess for a lot of the yeah it makes complete sense to me, yeah, and it's like, oh, actually there's much higher chance of resonance there. If I'm looking for the woman who looks like the kind of profile of woman that I should be having in my life, then I'm gonna go down that, yeah, that primrose path right of always going to the hot girl, right, but by Following, like this invisible, spooky feeling energy thing. Actually it, and I've been doing that consistently over the last couple of years and it's got me so much quicker to women that are so much better Aligns and connected with who I am Trusting. Yeah, that the resonance like the vibration of me and the vibration of her, and, if that fits, I like that phrase the resonance.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, cuz that's what it is. You're resonating on the same frequency. It's a vibration that is that's calling you from across the room, from across the and, and you feel it, and it's strong, she feels it too.
Speaker 3:
There's the symmetry, yeah and it's beyond skin, it's beyond skin for sure.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, it's not. Yeah, these things, no, because that's you, you're, you're, you're physical eyes are blurred by One. Here is motion of horny. There you go, looks like your girl.
Speaker 1:
Wow, that one too Well is that maybe what love at first sight is? To use a Trite phrase, when people talk about it they feel that immediately think I Think it's easy to dismiss these kinds of.
Speaker 3:
I think most people are not tuned in enough to actually know what they're feeling. A lot most of the time, yeah, absolutely. But when there are severe cases of love at first sight, like that moment we're talking about with a thing here, even like the most numb person in the world can tell when he's really really in love.
Speaker 2:
That's the same as what he was just saying before about everything gets cast aside. You just go yeah, yeah, those few, because it hits so strongly, yeah, it's like wow, it overwhelms you and overwhelms all your your normal caution in fears.